An Interview with Grandmaster Alex Kwok

You were one of the first Chinese martial arts practitioners to enter tournaments in the 1970s. In those days, Chinese stylists were rare. Please share with us some of your experiences.

At that time, Chinese styles were not well recognized, especially in the southern part of the United States. What they called “Chinese” martial arts was basically Karate with a few circular moves added. The judges did not understand or appreciate Chinese martial arts and they rated Chinese stylists extremely low.

What led you to enter your first competition?

In 1972 I took some students to watch Karate tournaments to observe the rules and the fighting. I modified our fighting style to suit those rules and started entering competitions the following year. I competed to see how we could adapt to the fighting. Even though the rules restricted our type of fighting, I believed we could still be successful and bring greater exposure of Chinese martial arts to North America.

What was your first tournament?

My first tournament was a small one in Victoria, British Columbia, in Canada, in 1973. I thought this would be a good test of our skills under Karate rules and style of competition. The results were positive. We found that Karate fighters did not know how to block our kicks. I had a student who advanced all the way to the finals using the same kick. So it was a good tournament for us, especially since it was the first one we entered.

When did you start competing nationally, both in Canada and in the United States?

I competed at the Long Beach Nationals in 1974. This was my first major tournament, and I placed first in weapons. I came up very early in empty-hand forms and did not score well. As for the fighting, I lost in the second round. In those days, I was still adapting and learning. Every region had different rules. For example, fighting in the Pacific Northwest region had strict rules about contact, and judges would penalize heavily against contact. In California, fighters used a lot of heavy punching, so the rules were different and judges expected different things. In southern states, contact was heavy with both punching and kicking. A technique that conformed to the rules in the Pacific Northwest would not even score a point in California or Texas.

What other major tournaments did you enter after Long Beach, and at what frequency were you competing at that time?

In 1975 I tried to go to all major top-rated tournaments. This required a lot of travel and was very costly. I competed in Albuquerque; in the Mardi Gras Nationals in New Orleans where I won first place in empty hand and weapons; in the US Karate Championship in Dallas where I also placed first in hand and weapons; in the Battle of Atlanta where I took first in forms; in the International at Long Beach placing first in Chinese-style forms; and several other regional tournaments. I was rated number one in North America in forms (including hand and weapons) by Karate Illustrated. As for the fighting, I only did regional fighting.

In those days, Bruce Lee was idolized and his untimely death in 1973 left people wanting more. The movie industry launched a search for a new “Bruce Lee.” How were you chosen to star in this role from among thousands of martial arts practitioners.

The search was a well-publicized worldwide event, but they were unable to find someone who could speak English and fill the role in both skills and fighting. After the 1975 Long Beach tournament I was in Los Angeles for an interview with Karate Illustrated. The publisher of Ohara Publications told Warner Brothers about me, and they contacted me about a screen test. I was in Berlin doing a demonstration for the Professional Karate Association when Warner Brothers offered me the part.

You started shooting for the movie, but the project was never completed. What happened?

From the outset, the producers were not satisfied with the script. They thought it was too much like a documentary and lacked action. And there were other problems, like getting a work visa for me. Also, the Hong Kong movie industry was very fast in producing two Bruce Lee movies at low cost, beating out Hollywood. These and other factors led the producers to eventually give up the project.

Did you receive any offers from Hong Kong to star in other martial arts films?

There were other offers from U.S. movie studios, but I did not pay much attention to them. From Hong Kong, Raymond Chow of Golden Harvest, who gave Bruce Lee his movie start, was interested in doing a movie with me. He flew to Vancouver to offer me a contract, but I felt that it was not very good. The Warner Brothers contract was for four films and contained three options. The Golden Harvest offer was for five films with progressive pay, but the pay was much less.

How much money are we talking about?

I don’t remember exactly but it was more than Bruce Lee got originally. Still, I felt that this was a risk for me. The Hong Kong offer had a very poor script. At the time, they were bringing in all kinds of martial artists and placing them in films with unattractive scripts. Also, the martial arts movie industry was already going into a recession.

You have seen tournament competition evolve over several decades. What are some of the differences you have noticed?

The first major change with tournament fighting rules occurred with the introduction of protective sparring equipment. This made a dramatic turnaround in the tournament fighting scenes and the way competitors fought. What was once effective didn’t necessarily work anymore. I was fortunate to witness the “before” and “after” and to experience the differences first-hand. Therefore, I was able to adjust my teaching and, as a result, had many very successful students fighting in competitions.

Another major change was the use of sparring equipment for full-contact fighting. Ultimately this led to the creation of two separate categories: full contact and light contact. Full contact emphasized heavy hitting and continuous fighting, while light-contact (or semi-contact) was, at that time, based on point scoring.

In terms of technique, what did you find that was working before, that was not working afterwards?

In general, a fight has three phases. The first phase involves the initial contact; second is the close-in fighting; third is grappling. Point contact fighting usually focuses on the first phase, the initial encounter. Full-contact fighting tends to emphasize the second phase with the initial phase being of short duration. Only recently have events such as the Ultimate Fighting Championships (UFC) allowed for the third phase, the grappling. However, I believe this is emphasized too much. Sometimes fighters go immediately into grappling and struggle there with no good outcome. I note that the Chinese rules for the Wushu Federation encourage all three phases of combat.

What about forms? Have you seen changes in the way forms are judged, or in the level of skill of the competitors?

In the 1970s, hard-style forms were very distinct and traditional. For example, you could easily distinguish a Karate routine from a Tae Kwon Do routine. Today, these competitors inject movements into their forms that were once seen only in Chinese styles. In the 1980s, contemporary Wushu athletes enjoyed an advantage until Wushu became a regular part of the competition scene. But with competitors from different styles adopting the acrobatic and dramatic Wushu moves and the Chinese flavor, hard-style competitors have regained the advantage.

How do tournaments in China and other parts of Asia differ from tournaments in North America?

In China and other parts of Asia fights have always been full-contact and continuous. Japan has a point-fighting system like parts of North America. In Southeast Asia continuous fighting started in the 1960s with the Southeast Asia Martial Arts Championship, which drew participants from places such as Hong Kong and Singapore. These competitions did not involve forms, only fighting with gloves and protective equipment.

Please talk a bit about Hong Kong fighters versus Thai boxers.

One of the winners of the Southeast Asia Championships, Chan Wai Man, was in Thailand doing films. In an interview he said that Chinese martial arts were more sophisticated than Thai boxing. A Thai boxer who was there took offense and challenged Chan to a fight. Chan won the fight because he was experienced not only in Chinese martial arts but also in Western boxing and had a lot of ring experience. Many Thai boxers wanted to retaliate. They recruited fighters from Hong Kong for a fight in Thailand, but these people were not qualified, and most had never fought before.

The fights were advertised as “The Best of Hong Kong versus the Best of Thailand.” The Hong Kong fighters got badly beaten and the results were promoted widely in martial arts publications. In Hong Kong, the martial arts community was outraged, but the truth was that Thai boxers were better conditioned for that type of fighting, whereas in Hong Kong at that time, nobody was fighting full contact. The Hong Kong government did not permit fighting by Thai boxing rules.

Later, in the 1980s, the rules changed to allow this kind of fighting, and after a while, Hong Kong fighters started winning matches against Thai boxers. One Hong Kong fighter even captured a Thai boxing championship belt.

Do you have any other comments about competitions in China? What is a typical tournament like?

After the Communist takeover of mainland China in 1949, martial arts competition focused only on forms. The government did not permit fighting but emphasized martial arts purely as sport. Even in the 1980s when foreign teams officially challenged the Chinese for contact matches, the challenges were declined. More recently, China has been experimenting with protective equipment and full-contact fighting, but the participants have been mostly from the police and armed forces.

Is this type of fighting very brutal?

The rules for this type of fighting were established in 1990 for national competitions and in 1991 for international competitions. The rules for full-contact fighting recognize the three phases of combat I mentioned earlier. However, the rules do not allow grappling on the ground. The fighters must be well rounded and well-conditioned. The Chinese rules accommodate a variety of martial arts disciplines but in the past have led to a lot of injuries. They are frequently being revised.

There are several Chinese martial arts factions promoting the arts in North America. Please tell us your feelings about this.

My interest is in the martial arts themselves. I am not interested in the political aspects of the various factions.

Do you think this vying for political position hurts the arts?

It certainly hurts the arts in the end, but this is not new. This sort of divisiveness has been around as long as there have been martial arts.

What are your hopes for the future development of Chinese Martial Arts in North America?

I would like to see the political problems resolved. The promotion of the arts must take precedence over personal and political interests. That is the ultimate goal. China has pushed for Chinese martial arts to be part of the international sports scene. I’m hoping for the possibility of Olympic entry. If the political problems and divisiveness continue, that will hinder the achievement of that goal as well as interfere with the growth and popularity of Chinese martial arts.

Note: This interview with Grandmaster Alex Kwok was conducted nearly 20 years ago. It appeared in the March-April 1996 issue of the Wu Gong Journal which I published at that time. Since the Journal has long been out of print, for posterity, I want to share this interview which I conducted with one of my principal teachers. I hope my students, and the martial arts public who might come across the post, will find it interesting.

I did not alter the interview from its original publication. I have been a student of Grandmaster Alex Kwok for more than 40 years.